Talk:Skat (card game)

Untitled

There's also Scat singing. We probably need to merge. Is it c or k? If it's k that would be handy natural disambiguation from the, erm, other meaning of scat. -- Tarquin 15:15 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

I have never seen the term skat singing before today; I think it may be a common error or a back formation to name the reggae version of the same thing. I believe that retaining the distinction between scat singing and skat, which I take to be "guitar talking", is worth keeping. Albert King and Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown are two more who do guitar talking. Also, Peter Frampton and that tube thing. The distinction from the perversion seems taken care of under scat. This article is in need of some markup and copy-editing as well. Ortolan88 17:45 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

On further reading, this page is very confused and seems to conflate guitar scratch rhythm with mouth music, guitar talking, and scat singing, buttressed with some undigested references to various scholarly works. I hope one of our musicologists can take a look at this one. Ortolan88

Skat is also a well-known card game for three players, and many of the links to this page expect to find an article about the game. --Zundark 18:13 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

Someone should make an article skat (card game) and link it. Ortolan88

The card game seems to be the primary meaning of "skat", so the article about it should be on this page, unless this page is going to be a disambiguation page. --Zundark 19:22 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

Should we move the bit about Minnie the Moocher to Scat singing? -- Tarquin 18:31 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

I have a feeling that someone better informed could sort some of these two articles out, but it isn't me. Cab Calloway was unquestionably in the normal scat singing tradition\, but I am fearful that some of the learned works referenced here actually contain useful information for this article (whatever its subject might turn out to be after it is clarified), as well as for mouth music, scat singing, and perhaps others. Ortolan88 18:40 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

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I just plunged ahead and did it. What I have done or am doing here:

1. I have just written a rudimentary, to say the least, article on the card game, but with an excellent link that should enable someone who knows the game to expand the entry.
2. I moved the discussion of Cab Calloway and the jazz reference and external link to the scat singing article. See Talk:Scat singing for a little more.
3. I moved the quotation about "skat!skat!skat!" and the Jamaican reference and external link to the ska article.
4. I will probably copy some of the stuff in ska to the mouth music article.

My apologies to the original author if I have done violence to his or her work, but as it stood this article was confusing and it was my intention to help by moving its salient parts into new locations. All complaints to me and remember, it can be reverted if you insist, but I believe it would be better to discuss it in the various talk pages. Ortolan88 04:05 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. Don't fret so much, orto! -- Tarquin 12:33 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

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Great job on the page. I have a question about the rules, which isn't clear in the text. If I play without 2 and Hand, but the Jc is in the skat, does my game become with 1 or stay without 2? -- Grubber 09:41 Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Hey Grubber! The game becomes with one. You can read it in the International Skat and Tournament Order (http://www.skatcanada.ca/canada/forms/rules-2003.pdf). It is under 5.4.2. Klausberti 09:10, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Great, thanks! I'm going to put in a quick note to reflect it. - grubber 10:49, 2005 Jun 17 (UTC)

most popular?

Is it really the most popular game in Germany? In the northern part definatly yes, but not really in all places. Maby you could say "most popular in some regions..."

I wouldn't doubt that, but the second-most couldn't possibly Doppelkopf, could it? It must be Schafkopf for sure...

It is played all over Germany, almost everybody who plays Schafkopf does play Skat, even though Schafkopf is more popular in Bavaria. 89.54.145.210 20:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I come from germany and in my opinion it's the most popular card game in germany. Every time we play it in school. I have the best master one can imagine. We call him "Skat Papst" in english "Skat Pope". Sorry for my bad english, I should improve it. | by Budd(h)a Brötchen

I think Skat actually is the most popular German game, because it is not just known in parts of the country. Southern Germany plays ist, Saxony plays it, Hesse plays it and it is well known all over the Rhein area. Even along the North Sea, if you ask for Skat players in a pub, you might find two joiners. Doppelkopf isn't sure to be the second place, but in far-western Germany it definitely is. In southern areas, it is likely to be Schafkopf after all. | By Aerandir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.174.131.244 (talk) 22:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

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One other thing. In te Reizen section, there must be an explanation of the +1 be added, (+1 winning the game simple, another +1 winning it Schneider, another +1 for Hand, angesagt, ouvert. I'm going to add this in the article. Also it is missing Revolution, a Null game, where the oppostion is allowed also to play open andd trade their cards. Its value is 92, if I'm not mistaken. To the tourne, that was called "Wende" in German and was still played in the 19th century, when the "Reizen" was still an option - at least according to a Skat book from the late 19th century I saw at an Antique Store in Munich a few years ago (I didn't buy it - it was too expensive).

89.54.145.210 20:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Revolution is not part of the Official Rules, but is one of many variations sometimes used in social games. Mike Tobias 09:17, 2 August 2007

Bidding in North American Skat

In a small portion of the southern USA it is customary for the first bidder to begin the bidding by asking the listener: "Are you ready for me to speak my words to you?" This is known as the Deaton Opener to which the listener can either reply "yes" and let the bidding commence or "no" if they need more time to examine their hand. In houses where the Deaton Opener is practiced it is considered rude to state a bid without following this tradition, akin to picking one's cards up before the dealer has finished dealing. This tradition is believed to have originated in the southeastern Jollyville Plateau of the Texas Hill Country. Watercat77 19:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

What region is that? - grubber 20:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

A small part of Central Texas. It is known as the Deaton tradition. Watercat77 15:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

In some houses it is the practice to place a bottle cap in front of the listener. If the listener passes, then the bottle cap is then moved to the first bidder. Watercat77 17:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Passing Ramsch

Another variant on the Ramsch is known as Passing Ramsch. In this variation, after ramsch is declared, the listener picks up the skat and is allowed to use the contents of the skat to replace two of their own cards. The listener then passes their discard to the first bidder, who in turn replaces two of their own cards and passes on to the next bidder. The next bidder can then replace two cards. Jacks may not be discarded or passed on to other players in Passing Ramsch. This is considered a legitimate house rule, but is not part of the official skat rules.Watercat77 15:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This is known in German as "Schieberamsch" (not part of the Skatordnung, obviously). Rules differ re. the treatment of the card points contained in the final skat: Some add it to the loser's card points, some add it to the card points of the guy to take the last trick. (C.f. the options in xskat) --128.196.208.15 21:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: see de:Schieberamsch if you know German... --128.196.208.15 21:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

"Soloist"/"Declarer"

As well as trying to tidy up the English, I have replaced the word "soloist" by "declarer" throughout.

• "Declarer" is the term that is familiar to me, as an English-speaking British skat player
• Bridge players are familiar with the word "declarer", as designating the player who sets trumps.
• In doppelkopf, "Soloist" would designate a player with a particularly strong hand, who chooses to play alone against the other (three) players, rather than just one of the players in a normal contract.
• In many tarock games, a "Soloist" would be a player in a contract of "Solo" - not playing alone, but playing in the highest contract.

So I believe that "declarer" will be less confusing than "soloist", particularly for English-speakers.

Other changes I have made, in the hope of making things clearer, are:

• List the ranks of the cards from top down instead of from bottom up
• Use capitalisation as in English.

Maproom (talk) 16:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, DavidDouthitt, for the further improvements. Maproom (talk) 22:11, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

But how should the capitalization be? In the list of the cards they seem to be proper names (Jack of Spades). It looks wrong both ways, and I can't find a rule in Webster's. Bridge World is not a source for language rules, any ideas for a source explaining when to capitalize these names?

--WiseWoman (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Citations needed for American Skat?

I have removed all the "citation needed" tags from the American Skat section. The German rules section doesn't give a citation every time it states a rule, so I don't think the American Skat section needs to. But if anyone feels citations are needed, they can be found in the Texas Skat section of pagat.com, a site which is already linked from the foot of the article. Maproom (talk) 20:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

French- or German-suited cards?

I see that Craw-daddy has changed the box at the top right of the page, so that the cards used, instead of "German or French", are now shown as "German". In fact, even in Germany, skat is more often played with French-suited than with German-suited cards. Unless Craw-daddy explains the reason for this edit, I propose to change it to "French or German". Maproom (talk) 09:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The card type names link to a page where "French" cards and "French-suited" cards are different. I don't know how best to fix this, but the implication that "French" cards, as defined on that page, are commonly used, is wrong - I suspect that was the reason for the change. PeterBiddlecombe (talk) 17:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Links like this German and French would work - but those links are inside a template, so I don't know how to put them right. I'll try to bring it to the attention of the template author. Maproom (talk) 21:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I had a look at the Template:Infobox CardGame which is used in this article; it hardwires the entry for "cards=" to a section in the article Playing card (and does not allow for alternatives). Unfortunately, that article (Playing cards) is not as comprehensive as its DE equivalent, de:Spielkarte. So I used the "footnote" parameter in the template to provide a link to the article Suit (cards) which does have a brief section on German cards. In summary: like in many other places in Wikipedia, Infoboxes are often more of a hindrance than of help; it seems to me, it doesn't add anything to this article and its inherent tendency to oversimplify may have a negative effect. Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Bidding

Okay, the bidding section was in German for all practical purposes :) I have re-written it. Would someone please see if it now makes sense (I play Skat, so it makes perfect sense to me!) and then remove the template? Thanks. --WiseWoman (talk) 15:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Clarity

I'm sorry, but I can't make head nor tail of these rules. I get that this is quite a complex game, but even so! 78.146.32.158 (talk) 19:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at the Citizendium article that I have written at citizendium:Skat. I think it is easier to understand, more correct and more complete, but I am not going to copy it over the present article without first establishing a consensus that this is an improvement. Hans Adler 18:46, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I found your article much easier to understand(and I'm a beginner). I'd definitely support a rewriting of the wikipedia article based on it. It could use an ordered list of the possible bidding values, I think that's a very useful part of the wikipedia article. Would it be possible to make a chart of the possible bidding values along with their corresponding contracts/bonuses? Also, is there a traditional/official way used to keep track of the starting hand of the soloist, to prevent them getting mixed up with the other cards in each trick?-AlexTG (talk) 08:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. There hasn't been much feedback so far, but I guess that was general lack of interest more than opposition to my version. I have seen large charts of possible bidding values elsewhere, so I am sure it wouldn't be a problem to add them. Maybe they are helpful for getting an overview, especially in cases of overbidding.

With only 32 cards, good players tend to keep almost the full information about the game in their minds. It would be very unusual to keep track of the soloist's hand. At the end of the game the soloist is supposed to remember his relevant cards. Since it's only the highest trumps that are relevant for this, it's very unlikely that he will get away with a lie. If you claim to have owned the Jack of hearts, for example, its real original owner will notice. Even in cases of an absent-minded soloist the game's value can usually be reconstructed easily by the other two players, without even looking at the tricks. In fact, good players tend to know the number of tops as soon as all the relevant cards have been played. Hans Adler 10:28, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm just agreeing that the text here could be clearer (as someone trying to learn the game from them). I think the main problem is that advice on winning strategy is mixed in with the basic statement of the rules. It should have been in a separate section. BenKeeping (talk) 09:05, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Example 2

Example 2 states:

"Note: most players will declare a Grand game with the above hand, as it will be much more lucrative than a suit game in Hearts (declarer will concede at most one Club trick, achieving Schneider for a score of at least 144 points)."

With the hand given, the average player would indeed choose a Grand. However, if they choose to play in hand (as many would) there is a good chance that they would give up 2 club tricks and not achieve Schneider. If they do not choose to play in hand, they might just as easily keep the queen of spades instead of a club, in an attempt to fool the opposition.

Ztrem (talk) 18:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

(I'm the--then anonymous--author of the section you mentioned). The example was given to demonstrate bidding. It is not straightforward to find a complex example for a suit game that would not--in many cases--be played as a Grand instead. If you do not declare "Hand" (I don't see a reason TBH), you will concede one club trick at most. The examples on the entire page should probably be more carefully chosen. Siggboy (talk) 18:16, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you do not declare hand, many possibilities arise (schwarz, leaving the club cards in the skat and losing the trick(s) elsewhere), but since it is still possible to lose two tricks in the club section (e.g., you find clubs 8 and 9, the ace has at least one card accompanying it), I changed it per Ztrem. --Ulkomaalainen (talk) 14:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Brommesche Tarockgesellschaft

In my opinion it is somewhat misleading to write that the Brommesche Tarockgesellschaft had developed the game. There are no sources for this legend, that Friedrich Ferdninand Hempel, a member of this group, has invented this game. Ok, it’s true that the game book of Gabelentz had the first mentions of the game “Scat” and Neefe has invented the “Matadorenrechnung”, the base for the scoring system, but that’s nearly all about it. The Tarockgesellschaft was just a group of town honourables, that used to play together. The game of Skat itself was developed among the normal people in the aray of Altenburg. -- Frakturfreak (talk) 21:26, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I think you have a good point. Unfortunately I don't have Ronneberg's book. What I do have is Das Skatspiel: Geschichte – Bilder – Regeln by Dietrich and Hoffmann. This book also goes into great detail about the early history of Skat. There is of course the story of the coachman returning from the Erzgebirge with the new game of Dreiwendsch, which his master then introduces into the Brommesche Tarockgesellschaft. But as J.F.L. Hempel published this only in 1848, I think we are allowed to doubt that this is completely correct. It seems at least as likely that they just picked it up from their neighbours. Also, in what sounds like an expression of Romanticism but is likely just an admission that they not have steered the development, they did write about the role that the local farmers played in developing the game further. Hans Adler 22:11, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

References

In culture

More on this perhaps? For instance, Skat players by Otto Dix.Malick78 (talk) 19:56, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Another Reference

Not sure if this is helpful to anyone, but I came across some rules to Skat in a copy of Encyclopedia of Sports, Games and Pastimes, published by the Amalgamated Press Ltd, London, in approx 1935. The rules as written in that book are laughably impossible to understand for a beginner, despite the author's claim that they have been 'made as clear and simple as possible'. Let me know if an excerpt from these would be of any use to you. Psymann (talk) 14:19, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

It sounds unlikely, particularly if what it says is impossible to understand (as is often the case with rules books of that date). There have been numerous changes to the rules of Skat since 1935. 15:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Example 2 again

Note: Most players will declare a Grand game with the above hand, as it will be much more lucrative than a Suit game in Hearts (declarer will concede at most two Club tricks, probably achieving Schneider for a Game Value of at least 144 (24x6)).

Following from the parenthesis I assume we are talking about a Hand game (otherwise declarer would replace the ♣10 by ♦J and concede at most one Club trick). For evaluating the actual game value at the end of the game the Skat is taken into consideration. So, assuming the player played Hand and achieved Schneider, the game value would be 24x7=168.

• 1 for becoming declarer
• 4 for the strait of ♣J ♠J ♥J ♦J
• 1 for declaring Hand
• 1 for achieving Schneider

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Skat - typical hand of 10 cards.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:23, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

On the first image - Typical Skat cards ? - not the ones shown on the shot.

Skat can obviously be played with a reduced "standard 52 cards deck", but there are indeed special 32 card decks as well. Recently, by mistake, I bought a real Skat deck in Berlin. It has four suits, hearts, green blades, balloons and ... well something red and yellow with something green on (very hard to descrbe). All from 6 to 10 followed by U (a boy around 14 perhaps), O (a young man), K (an obvious King) and A (various figures for each suit). There is no female figure. This includes all I know about this game, but there is indeed special cards for Skat. 91.128.168.74 (talk) 02:29, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Skat packs of 32 cards are absolutely the standard pack for this and other games in Germany. The pack you bought was a German-suited one in which the suits are Acorns, Leaves, Hearts and Bells. The Germans have traditionally used those suits for longer than we or the French have used French-suited cards. The particular design you have is the East German pattern from around the 1960s. Instead of a Queen and Jack, German-suited packs have Obers and Unters. But the rules are the same. Enjoy using them! Bermicourt (talk) 10:08, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Capitalization and consistency

While the German word "Skat", as a noun, is capitalized as all nouns are in German, the article's in English and, at least for the first part of the article, we're treating the name of the game as an unitalicized English word. It isn't a proper noun so it should be uncapitalized, as is the case for contract bridge, poker, gin, rummy, etc.

After a certain point, the word begins being treated as a foreign word, italicized. I believe this is unnecessary. It's certainly inconsistent with the first part of the article. There are number of other words that shouldn't be capitalized either, such as "Jacks", "Hand", and "Null Hand". Largoplazo (talk) 23:17, 24 February 2024 (UTC)