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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was DELETE. dbenbenn | talk 17:04, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

StarCraft Players

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I'm not 100% sure this article needs to be deleted, but at the very least it needs to be retitled, merged, cleaned up or a combination of those. Also, deciding who is a notable player is subjective. If there are official Starcraft rankings, use those. As it exists right now, I vote to delete StarCraft Players. Carrp | Talk 03:40, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

  • Voted keep, but clean up and modify into a general "Professional Starcraft Playing" article to give the subject more context.

As for the subjectivity of notability, the choice of notable players is based on a combination of rankings, past success and fan popularity. All players described are commonly talked about in English-language Starcraft progaming fan discussions, and all on the list that are still active are within the top 20 of the offical rankings. ShardPhoenix 05:58, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep and cleanup. I agree, since these seem to be professional players with a fan following. BTW, I like your name, ShardPhoenix. --Deathphoenix 06:36, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • Hmmm... after reading other votes about this sending a dangerous precedent for future articles written about "top" players of video games, I change my vote to Neutral. I think since these guys have a fan following, they might be notable, but at the same time, this could set a precedent for future articles that would otherwise be vanity articles. --Deathphoenix 21:37, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, cleanup and expand. Megan1967 06:43, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Weak delete unless some significant substantiation can be done. It's very easy for any l33t player to add himself to the list, and we don't really want that. Radiant! 09:54, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
  • No no no! Extremely Delete. Trilobite (Talk) 10:47, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • There are currently a whole lot of changes going on at StarCraft, with StarCraft Players and StarCraft storyline branching out of the sections on that page as people variously disagree on what should be kept and what should remain. I suggest that rather than nominating individual pages for deletion piecemeal, people go over to Talk:StarCraft and actually come to some agreement as to if and how the article is going to be split up. (There appears to be no consensus about StarCraft universe versus StarCraft storyline, for example.) Provisional Delete pending a consensus being reached at Talk:StarCraft. Uncle G 12:00, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)
  • No vote Please stop submitting "StarCraft"-related articles for VfD for now; understand me, I know no policy prevents you from doing so, but I'm asking you do so out of courtesy as we're trying to get things sorted out in that category. As I see it, this will eventually become a redirect to a "Multiplayer (StarCraft)" article. Have some patience please. Phils 13:15, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. I'm sorry, the Wikipedia is a work in progress, but it is not a construction site, with "under construction" signs all over the place. People coming to the Wikipedia should be able to find it always in a reasonable state -- although perhaps not in the ideal state for which editors are aiming. The main article space is not your hard drive or even your User space. If you are working on a set of articles and they are not yet in a reasonable state keep them out of the main article space until they are in a reasonable state; otherwise, you are going to find other editors trying to restore Wikipedia to a reasonable state -- by means of cleanup, VfD, and other means. By the way, how does this article make sense even as a redirect to Multiplayer (StarCraft)? And shouldn't that be StarCraft (Multiplayer) , anyway? --BM 14:57, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am working to restore the crapload of preexistent StarCraft articles. I don't really see how it makes sense to delete them all now and restore them later, once someone is done working on them. Following your suggestion, we should trash all articles marked for cleanup because some uninformed outsider might see them and be shocked or whatnot. I am not taking the main space for my hard drive, I'm asking for a few days to make decrepit articles worthy of Wikipedia again. Phils 16:45, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • That is laudable. However, the only one that has been nominated for VfD yet (afaik) is the list of notable players, since some Wikipedians hold that the criteria for inclusion are too subjective, meaning that any wannabe could add a cool story there and claim to be the best in his area. Please take that into consideration. Radiant! 18:41, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
  • Well Phils, you have 5 days, which is the amount of time this will be on VfD before it is decided. You can't expect other editors to decide this on the basis of what you are planning to do when you have not told anyone what that is. How about at least explaining where an article entitled "StarCraft Players" makes sense in your planned scheme of articles? Because I can't see where a list of StarCraft players would be a reasonable article to have, or even a reasonable redirect. --BM 19:02, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Looks like User:Phils and User:Coolcat do not agree on the future of this article. I have no idea what Phils plans for the article since he hasn't said, but I suspect I don't like it. But, as for what Coolcat has done with the article, making it a miscellaneous list of supposedly notable StarCraft players, I know I don't like it. Delete, delete, for pity's sake, delete. (Admin: please count this as three votes.) --BM 22:41, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Delete. Ok, let me state my case: I never wanted to maintain this article, but I am currently in disagreement with User:Coolcat over how the article should be split (see Talk:Starcraft, User_talk:Coolcat, and User_talk:Phils), with him reverting my edits on sight as vandalism. I have requested comment of WP:RFC and have faith that the dispute will be resolved (as we do not really disagree - as I see it - it's just a misunderstanding). It's that at the time this VfD was submitted, the main article linked to Notable Players, so I feared the dispute might escalate as a result of any further VfDs. It was just to give a sign that we know there's a lot of work to be done on StarCraft articles, and we're working as quickly as possible to do the appropriate merges and edits, making many VfDs unnecessary as the problems will be addressed anyway. That being said, this article can die, although it would make sense to make it a redirect to StarCraft Gameplay, which also covers professional play. Phils 11:51, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • STRONGEST POSSIBLE DELETE! Not only is it highly unenecylopedic, crufty, unverifiable, and far too subjective/impossible to NPOV, it would set a terrible precident for skilled players of any video game/board game/RPG wanting articles. Absolutely not. This kind of nonsense is exactly why Wikipedia is rarely taken seriously by academics and researchers. Kill it, for the good of us all. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 19:49, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
    • An execelent idea! And while we are at it we can delete every sports person, actor, director, president, senetor, famous person, and heck even our own names becasue God forbid a person with outstanding qualities in any profession should be acknowlaged, and as you so blantedly put it, such articles are "highly unenecylopedic, crufty, unverifiable, and far too subjective/impossible to NPOV". Keep the article. If need be we can move it to a special page. The top players in any field need to be reckognized, even if you don't believe for one moment that its worth the effort. If we need to develope a system for deciding who gets mentioned than we can place the top players of the year up.TomStar81 06:48, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete gcbirzantalk 20:57, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete Starcruft. I have so many problems with this article. Firstly, this article could get pretty huge if being the #1 Starcraft player AT ONE TIME is reason enough for inclusion. These things do change multiple times daily, after all. Secondly, this could set a precedent that any player in any game could argue that his high standing makes him/her worthy of wiki notability. Remember, there is no Starcraft World Cup. This would mean any MVP of a college soccer game could argue he's worth inclusion. Merge the truly noteworthy few from this page into Starcraft. --InShaneee 21:25, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • This should be deleted--nixie 23:42, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete -- Longhair 09:31, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Just a collection of short bios of non-notable gamers. Regardless of how the Starcraft articles are rearranged, this information will not be missed. — Gwalla | Talk 00:47, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Subtrivial fancruft. Wile E. Heresiarch 03:44, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Trivial Starcruft. Jayjg (talk) 05:23, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete with prejudice. Fancruft; absolutely not noteworthy; trivalizes Wikipedia. jdb ❋ (talk) 07:15, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Neutralitytalk 07:35, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oh dear, it's worse than I imagined. Delete. -R. fiend 05:48, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • In the past, I have been among the strongest anti-StarCruft (craft is good, cruft is bad) Wikipedians (see Talk:StarCraft for evidence). However, I must reluctantly vote keep on this one (though the page should also be renamed so that it fits naming conventions and the word "Players" is not capitalized). The players listed are actually quite notable in the StarCraft gaming community, which was during the late 1990s possibly the largest gaming community for any single computer game in the world. We do have articles on, for example, chess players after all. —Lowellian (talk) 22:48, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • Reluctant keep. Though terrible in its current state, we need quality articles on professional gaming. Top players are not changed daily. There is a Starcraft World Cup in the WCG: people like Slayers_Boxer are enormously popular. MOST IMPORANTLY, however, WE SHOULD NOT be deleting these until we reach a consensus on Talk:Starcraft on how to deal with all these Starcraft articles and where to place them.--Etaonish 01:32, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
    • Upon further review, I'm changing to strong keep. This article is not as inherently subjective as many suggest: The WCG is an excellent standard of top players. Among all Starcraft players, Slayers_Boxers' skill is as undisputed as Muhammad Ali in boxing. The list has room for objectivity and certainly doesn't warrant immediate deletion. I'm as strong an opponent of cruft as the next person, but this isn't cruft.--Etaonish 01:37, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. I can see the arguements of those who vote keep and could almost do so myself, but this would not be a good precedent. Starcraft is a great game, but listing the best players of various computer games is not a good direction to go in my opinion. There is just too small a segment of the world population that actually care about this, making notability questionable. I myself was an avid Starcraft player back in the day, but I never particularly cared who the top ranked people were. Not claiming that this means no one should find it interesting or important, just that not even all Starcraft fans feel this topic is important. Indrian 04:54, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: We have lists of professional game players of other sports and games, such as chess world champions, and we even have something of a disambig page for American football players. Who is to say whether or not computerized games call for the same attention? Are there specific criteria that have been agreed on by the community? If not, why not? If we're going to say that computer games aren't notable enough, then we need to have criteria saying what kinds of games ARE notable enough to have player lists.
    • I said the same thing earlier; we either have to include this article for the sake of maintaining a neutral point of view or delete every article that mentions noteworthy players in any field. TomStar81 00:53, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, quality article on gamers. JamesBurns 10:07, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

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