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Mountain ranges

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>1 syllables

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  • Dabie Mountains, Daxing'an Mountains
    1. [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 17:23, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC) I think Mountains should be called thus.
    2. Xiaopo ℑ 00:18, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC) I'm with Ran. A geographical feature should always have an indicator (in English) of what sort it is.
  • Dabie Shan, Daxing'an Ling
    1. I vote this way. I think it's strange to translate part of the name. I don't think we'd have "Madre Mountains" for Sierra Madre or "Grande River" for Rio Grande.--Jkiang 00:50, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
      • Now that I think about it a bit more, I think I'm also leaning towards this choice. But be prepared to see expressions like "the Dabie Shan Mountains" in articles from now on. ;) -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 23:23, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)
    2. I agree with Jkiang's points. --Jiang 03:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    3. We wouldn't say, e.g., "The English name of the tallest mountain in Taiwan is Morrison." The Chinese name of the tallest mountain in Taiwan is Yu Shan. If we can't sneak "mountain" or "peak" in that way, we might need to speak of "Sieraa Madre (mountains)' and "Tianmu Shan (mountains)." P0M 05:43, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    4. I agree with Jkiang. [[User:Colipon|Colipon+(T)]] 04:02, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I guess I should explain my reasoning: I think the real problem with using "Huang Shan" and "Huai He" is: it may be obvious to us what these refer to, but it is NOT obvious to everyone else. When we write, "We can also find Huang Shan in Anhui province", an average reader is just going to go, "Huh?" At this point we have to sneak the word "Mount" or "Peak" somehow into that sentence, ending up with either "Mount Huangshan" or "Mount Huang". But without the word "Mount" in there, the sentence is essentially meaningless to most readers. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

I support just using the most common form, excluding the reundant form. If the non-English form (e.g. Chang Jiang) is most common, then use it. If not, then sneak in some English but keep it non-redundant (Mount Huang over Mount Huangshan). --Jiang 00:11, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Personally I think Mount Huang sounds horrible, because "Huangshan" is one word in Chinese. I think I can put up with "Huang Shan", though I still prefer "Mount Huangshan" because it avoids all ambiguity.
What's wrong with redundancy? We can talk about "PIN numbers" and "China PRC", so why not "Mount Huangshan", "Lake Tai Hu", "Huai He River", or "Qinling Mountains"? (And how are you going to deal with unusual designations like "Han Shui" 汉水 or "Tian Chi" 天池?) It's the clearest form and it respects Chinese usage at the same time.-- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:34, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)
Huangshan is two words (ie two characters) in Chinese - Chinese doesn't use spacing. With Mount Huangshan and others, the usage is not clear cut so we have some leniency in setting the standard. If we have a choice, then it's best to make the title accurate. Spanish place names like Rio Grande (instead of Rio Grande River) are not made redundant so why should Chinese ones be given a different standard? If anything, its pushing aside the Chinese meaning in favor of English-speaking ignorance. Let's not encourage it. --Jiang 01:57, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
By "one word" I mean we have two characters that are stuck together "inseparably". It's like mianbao (bread) or fanqie (tomato), you can't split it up; it doesn't work out psychologically. That's why I proposed having separate rules for 1 syllable and >1 syllables in the first place.
As I said, I think I can work with "Huang Shan", "Qin Ling", "Huai He" and "Tai Hu", but be prepared for confusion (Huang Shan is the mountain, Huangshan is the city) and weird circumlocutions (Wuxi is north of Tai Hu, a lake.), as well as inconsistency (we have Qin Ling and Huai He, but Hainan Island and Loess Plateau.) -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 02:07, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)
Pinyin usually doesn't use spaces where the relevant characters form a single lexeme, hence, Beijing and not Bei Jing. I think making a distinction between city and geographical entity with spacing is confusing and unnecessary -- not to mention putting a space in Huang Shan would be simply wrong on the pinyin. I think we'd have a lot less confusion if we always put the English form of the geographical entity (e.g., mountain, lake, river) in the title, regardless of whether it causes redundancy. After all, redundancy never killed anyone. --Xiaopo ℑ 00:31, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
Except for some cases in genetics I think you are right. The people who know that Tamzui means the River Tam can deal with Tamzui river without batting an eye. But "They fished him half dead out of the Tam!" might cause some confusion or hilarity (depending on what the reader thought a "tam" to be). ;-) P0M

The convention in pinyin is to leave a space between the name and the geographical description just as there is a space between the surname and given name(s). On modern maps, you will see "Chang Jiang" printed, not "Changjiang". I agree that making the distinction is confusing and should be avoided, but this distinction is not invalid. Do use it when it's the common form in English (e.g. Huang He). Do we use Pearl River or Zhu Jiang? --Jiang 05:06, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


1 syllable

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  • Qin Mountains, Yan Mountains
    1. "Yanshan Mountains" is redundant and therefore unaccetable.--Jiang 03:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Qinling Mountains, Yanshan Mountains
    1. [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 17:23, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC) Same reasoning as above. I oppose "Qin Ling" and "Yan Shan" also because it could get confusing for writers and readers alike — why is the city "Huangshan" but the mountain "Huang Shan"? I want to keep the "-ling" and "-shan" though because one-syllable Chinese names sound very weird without them.
    2. Xiaopo ℑ 00:18, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC) Redundant placenames have a long and noble history in the English language. Look at Lake Tahoe, for instance.
  • Qin Ling, Yan Shan
    1. Same reasoning as above. Hopefully more than two will vote or we can hardly come to a consensus. :) --Jkiang 00:50, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    2. only if this is the most common form as it could cause confusion otherwise. --Jiang 03:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    3. As above, with "Qin Ling (peak)" if we can't sneak "peak" in some other way. P0M 05:43, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Mountain peaks

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>1 syllables

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  • Mount Wutai, Mount Emei
    1. The predominant method on Wikipedia right now. Also, more intuitive for English speakers. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
    2. Xiaopo ℑ 00:18, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC) As I said before, it needs to be made clear that these are mountains.
  • Wutai Shan, Emei Shan
    1. Only if the same convention is used for mountain ranges. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

1 syllable

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  • Mount Heng, Mount Tai
    1. avoid redundnat form; native form for 1 syllable can get confusing --Jiang
  • Mount Hengshan, Mount Taishan
    1. Same reason as above. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
    2. Xiaopo ℑ 00:18, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC) See above. The others just sound bad, and redundancy is okay!
  • Heng Shan, Tai Shan
    1. Again, only if the same convention is used for mountain ranges. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Rivers

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>1 syllables

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  • Hutuo River, Daqing River, Songhua River, Lancang River
    1. Same reason as mountains. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
    2. Sure, why not? - Nat Krause 07:34, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    3. Xiaopo ℑ 00:18, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
  • Hutuo He, Daqing He, Songhua Jiang, Lancang Jiang

1 syllable

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  • Huai River, Liao River, Nen River, Xiang River
    1. Same reason as mountains. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
    2. Moreover, rivers with common English names, i.e. the Yangtze and the Yellow River should be listed under those names. - Nat Krause 07:34, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    3. Yangtze and Yellow are outdated and should not be used; use what modern maps use but when in doubt, use English --Jiang 00:16, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Huaihe River, Liaohe River, Nenjiang river, Xiangjiang River
    1. Xiaopo ℑ 00:18, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC) Same reason as the mountains. I wondering, Ran, if you were okay with "Yanshan Mountains", why not "Huaihe River"?
  • Huai He, Liao He, Nen Jiang, Xiang Jiang
    1. if most common form. --Jiang

It occurred to me that maybe 江 should be treated differently thatn 河. "Zhu River" sounds weirder to me than "Huai River". What do native Chinese speakers think? - Nat Krause 07:34, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Lakes ======= >1 syllables =

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The Mu us desert

the Mu Us dsert is over 600 digrees ferinheight.

  • Lake Qinghai, Lake Dongting, Lake Poyang
    1. Same reason as mountains. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
    2. - Nat Krause 07:34, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    3. Xiaopo ℑ 00:18, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
  • Qinghai Lake, Dongting Lake, Poyang Lake
  • Qinghai Hu, Dongting Hu, Poyang Hu

1 syllable

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  • Lake Tai, Lake Chao, Lake Hong
    1. This sounds fine to me. In addition, some should be translated completely, if the result is fairly common in English. Case in point, of course, is West Lake.
    2. oppose redundant form, support rest --Jiang 00:16, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Lake Taihu, Lake Chaohu, Lake Honghu
    1. Same reason as mountains. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
    2. Xiaopo ℑ 00:18, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
  • Tai Hu, Chao Hu, Hong Hu
    1. oppose redundant form, support rest --Jiang 00:16, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We also need to make a decision about lakes with other sorts of names, like Tian Chi. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Other physical features

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The Mu Us Desert is over 600 degrees ferenheight

  • Zhoushan Island, Liaodong Peninsula, Sichuan Basin, Loess Plateau, Mu Us Desert, North China Plain
    1. The alternatives just sound weird. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 00:48, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
    2. Definitely. - Nat Krause 07:34, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    3. Xiaopo ℑ 00:18, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
  • Zhoushan Dao, Liaodong Bandao, Sichuan Pendi, Huangtu Gaoyuan, Mu Us Shamo, Huabei Pingyuan
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