Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andrarchy
Neologism. Google returns weird results. Wyllium 23:45, 2004 Oct 19 (UTC)
KeepMove to androcracy. I am currently working on this new page, and the word is well-established as the correct and proper term to describe government rule by males, in relation to the social control by males known as patriarchy. I am working on expanding this page, which is why I wrote "in progress" in the edit summary when I created the page. --Viriditas 23:55, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)- Wouldn't a "well-established" term return more relevant hits in Google? Wyllium 00:30, 2004 Oct 20 (UTC)
- No. Google test merely looks for common usage. The word is used in political science. See the refs. --Viriditas 00:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- It's a valid formation, but is it really established? Patriarchy already covers it, and I can't see any way the two are distinguishable. Abstain until later in the VfD period to see if it's clearer then. Geogre 00:17, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
MergeMove to androcracy. - the word itself does not appear to be well-established (lack of online presence, lack of reference in online library catalogues, lack of occurrence in online or print dictionaries - all of which surprised me, as I'm familiar with the term as well); the distinction described above does not seem to be well-established at all: it is etymologically legitimate, however this is not sufficient in itself to argue the creation of an article which defines a term not in wide usage. A reference or source for this division would help, otherwise it would be better served as a subset of the patriarchy article.Ziggurat 00:34, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Refs posted. --Viriditas 00:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks! Do these references define the term, introduce the distinction mentioned above, or adopt it in a de facto fashion? If the term is not in common usage (particularly where using it diverges from the more common definition of patriarchy) it would make sense to list its proponents in the article on Andrarchy (i.e. "a term used by suchandsuch authorities to distinguish between...") rather than introduce it as the one proper terminology. Ziggurat 00:51, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Ok, I'm working on the article to address your points. However, patriarchy is an entirely different concept. Patriarchy is a social organization where descent is traced through the father, as opposed to matriarchy where descent is traced through the mother. These are social concepts. Andrarchy is a form of government or political organization where men rule or make decisions. While there is certainly a relationship between the two concepts, they are two different concepts altogether. In a survey of the popular literature, Donald MacKenzie discusses the differences between the two words in The Social Shaping of Technology. Pippa Norris references Studler's and Welch's andrarchy paper in Passages to Power : Legislative Recruitment in Advanced Democracies and in her book, Political Recruitment : Gender, Race and Class in the British Parliament.As does Jenny Chapman in Politics, Feminism and the Reformation of Gender. Vivien Burr explains why people use the term andrarchy in Gender and Social Psychology. The use of the term in political science is really fleshed out and defined by Michael Pusey in Economic Rationalism in Canberra: A Nation-Building State Changes its Mind. Authors Marianne Hester and Margaret Thornton also use the term in their books. --Viriditas 02:33, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Point taken regarding the distinction between patriarchy and andrarchy; I withdraw my uninformed generalisation :) . However the majority of the references given above refer to the same article by Studler and Welch (once!) rather than use the term in any cohesive fashion as best I can ascertain. Regarding the term as describing a government or political organisation ruled by men, the far more common term, which passes both the dictionary and google tests, is Androcracy, so perhaps this article would be better sited there with 'Andrarchy' introduced as an alternative term? Ziggurat 04:10, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, the articles seem to refer to Studler and Welch, and they probably refer to Aberbach as well. You make a great point about androcracy; that word seems to be more current. Do you suggest a move? If so, feel free to move the article. --Viriditas 05:19, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I'm not positive what the Wiki process is when it's listed on this page, so I'll just change my vote to move to Androcracy. Look forward to reading the finished article! Ziggurat 05:26, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Ziggy? I was hoping you would help me. Heh. --Viriditas 05:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Oh, I just wasn't sure if it needs to go through the whole deletion voting before it can be switched; my suggestion is just a vote, after all! Ziggurat 06:18, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I know. But if you want to contribute to the proprosed androcracy article (or the current article), please do. --Viriditas 06:49, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Oh, I just wasn't sure if it needs to go through the whole deletion voting before it can be switched; my suggestion is just a vote, after all! Ziggurat 06:18, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Ziggy? I was hoping you would help me. Heh. --Viriditas 05:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I'm not positive what the Wiki process is when it's listed on this page, so I'll just change my vote to move to Androcracy. Look forward to reading the finished article! Ziggurat 05:26, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, the articles seem to refer to Studler and Welch, and they probably refer to Aberbach as well. You make a great point about androcracy; that word seems to be more current. Do you suggest a move? If so, feel free to move the article. --Viriditas 05:19, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Point taken regarding the distinction between patriarchy and andrarchy; I withdraw my uninformed generalisation :) . However the majority of the references given above refer to the same article by Studler and Welch (once!) rather than use the term in any cohesive fashion as best I can ascertain. Regarding the term as describing a government or political organisation ruled by men, the far more common term, which passes both the dictionary and google tests, is Androcracy, so perhaps this article would be better sited there with 'Andrarchy' introduced as an alternative term? Ziggurat 04:10, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Ok, I'm working on the article to address your points. However, patriarchy is an entirely different concept. Patriarchy is a social organization where descent is traced through the father, as opposed to matriarchy where descent is traced through the mother. These are social concepts. Andrarchy is a form of government or political organization where men rule or make decisions. While there is certainly a relationship between the two concepts, they are two different concepts altogether. In a survey of the popular literature, Donald MacKenzie discusses the differences between the two words in The Social Shaping of Technology. Pippa Norris references Studler's and Welch's andrarchy paper in Passages to Power : Legislative Recruitment in Advanced Democracies and in her book, Political Recruitment : Gender, Race and Class in the British Parliament.As does Jenny Chapman in Politics, Feminism and the Reformation of Gender. Vivien Burr explains why people use the term andrarchy in Gender and Social Psychology. The use of the term in political science is really fleshed out and defined by Michael Pusey in Economic Rationalism in Canberra: A Nation-Building State Changes its Mind. Authors Marianne Hester and Margaret Thornton also use the term in their books. --Viriditas 02:33, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks! Do these references define the term, introduce the distinction mentioned above, or adopt it in a de facto fashion? If the term is not in common usage (particularly where using it diverges from the more common definition of patriarchy) it would make sense to list its proponents in the article on Andrarchy (i.e. "a term used by suchandsuch authorities to distinguish between...") rather than introduce it as the one proper terminology. Ziggurat 00:51, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Refs posted. --Viriditas 00:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Delete. Neologism. Original research. Neither Andrarchy nor Androcracy is in [the dictionary]. If the terms exist at all, they are probably technical terms confined to a limited academic subspeciality. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 12:46, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. The word, "Androcracy" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and that's really the only dictionary that matters in this case. OED defines it as, "the rule of man or the male, male supremacy," and it's referred to in the context of sociology. I did not find the word, "andrarchy" in the OED, however. In addition to the authors already listed, it should also be mentioned that feminist author Mary Daly uses the word in her book, Gyn Ecology, to refer to the system that oppressed women as witches. Also, Robert Miklitsch uses the word to describe the same system in a journal article published by Duke University. Robert A. Scharf probes the pyschological and historical implications of androcracy in two journal articles. I think that author Riane Eisler popularized the term in her book, The Chalice and the Blade. --Viriditas 03:50, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I'm wrong, but I'm not quite ready to stop arguing yet. Re "androcracy," if it's "in the context of sociology," and if it's only in the full twenty-odd-volumes-when-in-paper OED, then I'm not yet sure I'm wrong in calling it "a technical term confined to a limited academic subspecialty." Well, strike "limited" and "sub-". [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 21:14, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC) I dunno about insisting on proper technical terms. I had an unsatisfying exchange with an academic because I said that some characters in Jack London's novels expressed "racist" sentiments. He insisted that they were "racialist," not "racist." I pointed out that my (layperson's) dictionary defined racialism as a synonym for racism. He said that academics who study literature don't use it that way. But, But, OK. Just don't ask me to call a starfish a "sea star." [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 21:20, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- That's incorrect. The word, "Androcracy" is in the Oxford English Dictionary, and that's really the only dictionary that matters in this case. OED defines it as, "the rule of man or the male, male supremacy," and it's referred to in the context of sociology. I did not find the word, "andrarchy" in the OED, however. In addition to the authors already listed, it should also be mentioned that feminist author Mary Daly uses the word in her book, Gyn Ecology, to refer to the system that oppressed women as witches. Also, Robert Miklitsch uses the word to describe the same system in a journal article published by Duke University. Robert A. Scharf probes the pyschological and historical implications of androcracy in two journal articles. I think that author Riane Eisler popularized the term in her book, The Chalice and the Blade. --Viriditas 03:50, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Move to Androcracy [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 21:20, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Keep - A better word than androcracy, and both andrarchy and gynarchy are better formed than the more commonly heard matriarchy and patriarchy, which technically refer to government by female or male ancestors, but are commonly misused to refer generally to rule by women or men. Perhaps merger at the most commonly used words might be appropriate provided that all are discussed. Andrarchy may be a neologism, but its one whose meaning is fairly obvious, and it is a better fit to the meaning than the words it was made to replace. Smerdis of Tlön 14:37, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I concur with the opinion that these terms should be part of the proposed article for androcracy. See my changes to the current article. --Viriditas 09:23, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- The absolute reference (OED) NOTE the following is a copyright violation, do not include into the article:(before a vowel andr-), repr. Gr. -, combining form of man, male. androcentric (ændrsntrk) a., having man, or the male, as its centre; so androcentricity; androcracy (ændrkrs) [-CRACY], the rule of man or the male, male supremacy; androcratic (-krætk) a., pertaining to or involving androcracy; andromoncious (-mni()s), a. Bot. [MONCIOUS a.], having male and hermaphrodite flowers on the same plant; andromoncism (-mnisz()m) Bot., the condition of being andromoncious. 1903 L. F. WARD Pure Sociol. xiv. 292 The *androcentric theory is the view that the male sex is primary and the female secondary in the organic scheme, that all things center, as it were, about the male. 1959 Guardian 6 Nov. 6/5 The Fathers of the Church accepted from their cultural environment the androcentric standpoint. 1954 Theology LVII. 326 Do we see anything of this *androcentricity in the Christian ministry? 1903 L. F. WARD Pure Sociol. xiv. 376 The stage of gynæcocracy was succeeded by the stage of *androcracy, and the subjection of woman was rendered complete. 1893 Athenæum 7 Oct. 494/1 Marital relations among tribes in the enjoyment of an *androcratic government being generally far more satisfactory. 1903 L. F. WARD Pure Sociol. xiv. 399 The androcratic régime, during which woman had no voice in the selecting process. 1877 *Andromoncious [see ANDRODICIOUS a.]. 1888 G. HENSLOW Origin Floral Struct. 227 *Andromoncism signifies that the same plant bears both male and hermaphrodite flowers.[1] If you have a subscription, follow this link.132.205.15.4 18:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Somehow, I thought I never would see anything like "the following is a copyright violation", followed by said violation, from the same author in the same post, on Wikipedia. Learn something new everyday, I guess. Wondering if this VfD should me marked as a copyvio now. :) --Improv 14:21, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- That would be interesting :) 132.205.15.4 03:33, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Somehow, I thought I never would see anything like "the following is a copyright violation", followed by said violation, from the same author in the same post, on Wikipedia. Learn something new everyday, I guess. Wondering if this VfD should me marked as a copyvio now. :) --Improv 14:21, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I have moved Andrarchy to Androcracy and I have removed the VfD header. If this is not ok, please let me know. --01:09, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)