Talk:Hwa Rang Do

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Edit: "Additional to physical" to "addition to physical" under Philosophy. -Taekwondo-Cha!

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• I have essentially written the article on Hwa Rang Do. I will work on expanding it later (this took too many hours to do everything at once ;) ), but I would appreciate if someone with more experience here would look it over.
• The image on this page is listed as having no copyright info, but I did come across a copy on the internet at The U of W site. I presume this means that it is a copyright infringement for sure? I guess I will have to read more about copyright for pictures, so I can find a new one that is actually free to take ;).
• Most of the info is avaliable from the sources at the bottom of the page. The top one especially (world headquarters) has info about most of what I wrote. I tried to verify details it as I went, but much of this info is from memory from when I was training, so there may be minor details that have problems.

Eric Burnett 03:11, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that Michael Echanis' claims constitute any form of evidence or support for the "secret temple master" story of HWD. His expertise as a combat instructor has no bearing whatsoever on his competence as a historical researcher. Interview a number of recognized self-defense experts or champion martial artists of various backgrounds, and I'll guarantee that you'll hear them repeat any number of myths about the origins and development of martial arts. Also, the claims that HWD contains techniques that aren't found in any other martial art except ninpo is something that needs to be backed up with a source. --Halloween jack 14:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Bob Duggan Not Mentioned

I think in the criticism section Bob Duggan's page on the Real history of hwa rang do should be mentioned.

http://hwarang.org/internal.htm

-Bill

April 25, 2007

Why not add it?--Mateo2006 00:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that much of what has been written here that has been biased against the martial art of Hwa Rang Do has been simply for social/political gain reasons or in retribution over an unfavorable parting of ways. The bare truth is that whenever you have more than one master battling for recognition you will have this type of behavior, especially in something as poorly documented as the martial arts have been throughout history and with as much to gain or lose as is at stake. (A perfect example of what can be at stake is Tae Kwon Do; prior to being officially recognized by Korea as a national sport Tae Kwon Do was moderately known on par with Tang Soo Do, but after recognition is was soon accepted as an Olympic event and propelled into global recogntion along with other Olympic martial arts such as Karate and Judo).

There are many examples of poor or no documentation of systems, teachers, techniques, etc. and often for good reason. In times of war and or occupation by enemies, you would not want to document the things you wish to hide. It is amazing that there are as many records as exist today. It is insinuated that the mere existence of Suam Dosa might be a fabrication because there are no records of him, however, people living as recluses in that time period with the wars and invasions taking place, the communist takeover, etc. are historically known to have existed.

Mr. Euchanis' title in Hwa Rang Do is also disputed because of his rapid attainment of rank, however it was not indicated that he was also already a black belt in Tae kwon Do and at least one other Korean martial art, he was also a U.S.Army Ranger and a trainer for U.S.Special Forces, Rangers and SEALS units. This is all documented by the United States government. And it IS OFTEN customary in many different styles of martial arts to recognize the previous achievements and ranks in similar martial art styles and to accept the student at a much accelerated pace simply adding or adjusting the students techniques to bring the them into the system. As a member of Americas elite fighting units he would have had an expanded exposure to many styles of martial arts and their techniques, everything from strikes to grappling and submissions. In fact he probably had more training with certain weapons such as the knife than most martial artists would see in many years of training.

Further, practitioners of Hwa Rang Do emphasize that the art is a "living breathing" martial art which adapts and incorporates whatever techniques it's teachers deem advantageous for their students, (I.E. grappling techniques derived from Jujitsu). I believe it is as good a martial art, as any other style out there today and the art itself should not be debased because of the petty disagreements and egos of a few. —Preceding unsigned comment added by B5782d (talk • contribs) 18:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Problem is Bob Duggan doesnt claim to be a master. He does point out on his website the similarities of old HWRD techniques to hapkido and where it later had been modified in HWRD. I believe this anomaly was already taken up on the Bullshido.com website.

Besides that he's Not the only person that questions the origin and conduct of HWRD. everyone from Gil Kim to Michael De Alba etc. As for politics one can also suspect there are large organizations who makes alot of money$$ who has moltives to silent any dissenting voices.

The few monolithic organizations with their own "Judical Committe" and who demotes anyone who disagrees with them.

The whole history of HRWD historical claims and other claims has been overwhelmingly disputed (besides on bullshido.com), buddoseek.net, martialtalk.com, sherdog.net etc by martial art researchers and others if anyone bothers doing a search.

"Further, practitioners of Hwa Rang Do emphasize that the art is a "living breathing" martial art which adapts and incorporates whatever techniques it's teachers deem advantageous for their students..."

Sorta in the footstep of Michael De Alba's "Modern Farang Mu Sul" dont you think?

I suppose its like a Wing Chun practitioner learning judo, wrestling, jujitsu and still call it Wing Chun??

As for "petty disagreements and egos" thats funny comming from an organization that prohibit their own students from studying any martial arts outside of HWRD. And of course to having a "Judicial Committee" and the demotion of rank of any dissenting voices. Why suppress dissenting voices and those with alternative perspectives? Talk about controlling.

Henry123ifa (talk) 14:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Nine virtues

I was glancing through a translation of the Shu King, an exceedingly ancient work, which has something which may be related to the "nine virtues" here (this being the only article that matches the English phrase precisely). But without matching up Hanzi directly, it is very hard to say whether the translated ideas are the same or not. It is also very interesting that this seems to be formulated as a middle way possibly before Buddha. Could someone advise?

"Kaou-Yaou replied: ... In general practice there are nine virtues... By being liberal, yet austere; complacent, yet firm; particular, yet reverential; indifferent, yet respectful; kind, yet daring; self-respecting, yet meek; unaffected, yet genuine; steadfast, yet sincere; bold, yet just; and showing that he has integrity, how successful he will be!" Shu King p. 31 Wnt (talk) 06:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Hwarang do "virtues" are identical to the virtues of Daosim, Confucianism, and Bushido. Just in different order. -Krusader6 (talk) 04:24, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Recent edits

For further context on the recent edits here involving the history of the art, see the debate regarding the Korean vs. Japanese origins of Tae Kwon Do at Talk:Taekwondo (begun at Talk:Taekwondo/Archive_4#Japanese_origins). JJL (talk) 21:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

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Draeger, Donn and Robert W. Smith are not historian. and this book is a 'about Bushido'(about Japan book) not asian book.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0870114360/ref=s9sips_c1_img1-rfc_p?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0HVB3S38S35PVE2YSC8Z&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=265623401&pf_rd_i=507846

Title : Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts (Bushido--The Way of the Warrior)

• About the Author

The late DONN F. DRAEGER was recognized as one of the world's leading experts on fighting arts. He was more than proficient in several martial arts and was also a prolific author whose books have become the standard works on many aspects of the martial arts. ROBERT W. SMITH, well-known teacher and widely published author, is one of the world's leading experts on Chinese fighting forms and techniques, though his interests extend to fighting arts of all Asian countries.

Authors are not historian. His Ph. or Matster degree is not history. and WE can not confirm quote is real or not.

• Previous version

Some historians assert that many modern Korean martial arts were actually derived from the martial arts of other countries, primarily China and Japan.

• Current version

Someone assert that some modern Korean martial arts were influenced by the martial arts of other countries, primarily China and Japan.

I think this expression is a more Neutral.

and Hapkido is not direct link with Aikido. Japanese-origin arts is Wrong. Hapkido Founder learned Aikido. this is true. however, essntinal skill of hapkido is pretty distinguish from aikido. and according to encyclopedia, Origin of Aikido is possibly ancient martial arts of India. or China or Shilla (alternative link) so, it is not clearly state that Japanese origin. Manacpowers (talk) 17:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Primary sources

Would using Joo bang lee's book in regards to the modern formation of hwarang do be acceptable since it would be a primary source? Obviously not in regards to Lee's iteration of Hwa rang do's ancient history, as that wouldn't be a primary source. Defwiki (talk) 02:13, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Joo Bang Lee's Claimed Doctorate

Is there verification for this? I don't recall ever seeing anything beyond his use of "Dr." before his name. JJL (talk) 16:32, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Relationship with Sul Sa Do.

Dear Wikipedia Contributors,

please, receive a kind greeting. I was researching about the Korean version of Ninjutsu and found Sul Sa Do (http://www.sul-sa-do.com/). However, here in Wikipedia I have found this article entitled Hwa Rang Do. Are they the same? Are they related some way?

Thank you very much for your help in advance.

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 01:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

There is no historical documentation of a sulsado, or any Korean versions of assassin art similar to Ninjutsu of Japan. The current (2014) movie titled "The Fatal Encounter" is the closest approximation of Korean assassins from 18th century. Due to the popularity of the film, much historical discourse took place online, proving an existence of untrained assassins, but without any formalized art of any type. In fact, there is no martial arts identified from this period, aside from Gungdo, shippalgi, and ssireum.Krusader6 (talk) 04:28, 13 May 2014 (UTC)