Talk:Michel Aflaq

Some say...

Some sources say that in fact the tomb of Michel Aflaq was levelled. If so, it should be covered in article. [1] [2] --Magabund 14:09, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Neither of those sources seem particularly certain. I heard the destruction plan was halteed at the last minute. I got this from my Middle Eastern history professor, who was closely following the incident. This issue seems to have had virtually no coverage in the English language press. My suspicion is that if the tomb was actually destroyed there would have been more coverage and the lack of news articles is thus evidence that the tomb remains. - SimonP 14:25, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
• After looking around a bit I found some confirming news items, one says that smugglers were arrested with epitaph from the tomb. Another one says: The Iraqi daily al-Ta'akhi paper quoted the source as saying yesterday that the Iraqi police attended the removal process of the "tomb of the founder of the Socialist Arab Baath Party which was removed with the help of vehicles which leveled the tomb to earth." [3] [4]. --Magabund 00:41, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The tomb is not leveled nor was the building destroyed - is was not even looted. I was there today and all is in order. FEB 8, 2006. Give me an e-mail address and I will send you the pictures from today.

P. McDonald

If you like you could upload the images to Wikipedia. The encyclopedia could very much use an image of the tomb. To upload a picture you'll need to create and account, once logged in an upload link will appear on the menu to the left. - SimonP 14:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

According to this website, it remains fully in tact. Though the author visited before the area was returned to Iraqi control. [5] I've included this as a reference for the current version. Bangabandhu —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC).

Right now there are several conflicting sources regarding the status of his tomb. There is the (Asia Times), which said it was razed, and (the New York Times), which says it remains in the Green Zone after it was returned to the Iraqis. Clearly there are alot of rumours floating around, and the (Robert Fisk piece,) which is cited in the article and says the tomb was damaged, only sources his family. I am adding this (reference) that has pictures of the tomb and deleting the Asia Times reference. Bangabandhu (talk) 01:38, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Please Correct the Architect's Name

If this is reference to an Iraqi Architect, please make sure you are not referring to Al-Chadirchee. If so, you have misspelled the architect's last name please correct it!

A tomb was built for him in Baghdad designed by Chadagee that is widely regarded as a work of great artistic merit, unlike most of the Hussein regime’s creations

The assertion by « some…mostly Islamic fundamentalist propagandists» that Michel Aflaq’s mother was Jewish is preposterously ridiculous: frankly, it doesn’t deserve to be in a Wiki article

Aflaq’s father was a merchant of Christian Lebanese descent born in Midân, a multi-ethnic borough of Damascus His mother was a Greek-Orthodox Christian from the quarter of Saint Thomas (“Bâb Tumah”), the ancient Byzantine ghetto of the old city of Damascus

Aflaq was a staunchly secular modernist thinker albeit influenced by the Christian mystique of Dostoyevski to which he was exposed while studying European literature at the Sorbonne

Messy

This article still needs tightening and clarification. There are unqualified statements of fact that would not be appropriate for an encyclopedia entry, such as:

While considered an "ideological founder" of the Pan-Arab movement, Michel Aflaq had little connection to the governments that took power in Syria under the name of the Ba'ath party in 1963.

The original said he was "the ideological founder of the movement." Which movement? The Ba'ath? In this case, my interpolation of "Pan-Arab" may be incorrect. Please feel free to correct it. Is it accurate to say he was the founder of the Ba'ath Party? Is it a party or a movement? And so on, striving for accuracy. --Mylitta 08:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

What happened later

The Ba'ath Party article says he fled Syria and Iraq and went to Brazil. This article says he died in Paris, but effectively the narrative breaks off when he flees to Iraq from Syria.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:50, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Yazan (talk) 14:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Converted to Islam

Michel Aflaq was a muslim when he died even while he was alive there was very little Christian about him when he would openly advocate Islam and the embodiment of Islam with Arab nationalism. Now I might do this myself if I find time but somebody please upload a valid source that those in denial that still believed he was (or ever) a christian stating he was muslim convert upload it. There was a letter I heard he wrote in Arabic before dying confessing this. IF anyone finds the copy please upload it. I hate edit wars and I know if I added this to the article even with sources it will only result in one♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 14:00, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Yasmina, Aflaq was born to a Greek Orthodox family, so that makes him a Christian by birth (and there's no changing that). He is also a declared Secular Arab Nationalist per his ideology and writings. As to whether he converted later to Islam, I have no information about this nor have I read it anywhere, other than the flagrant fabrications of Saddam Hussein. If you find a WP:RS about him declaring himself a muslem, feel free to add it. You also might consider changing your language into something more cooperative and less soapboxing. Happy Editing. Yazan (talk) 14:09, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

anyone still believe he was a Christian or even secular is in denial the man had issues, Well I put a message here to avoid an edit war. The does exist I just need to find out or somebody who has a link to it. I think i heard his son knew about his conversion. Stating that Saddam Hussein fabricated the conversion is POV and speculation merely a rumour. To be honest i really dont think Saddam would of gone to all that trouble to fabricate a conversion of Somebody like Aflaq who already had Islamic sympathies while he was alive. Him being born to a Christian family doesnt mean he couldnt have changed his faith later in his life or that he had little loyalty to Christianity compared to Islam. (his own words & actions indicate this) Calling Arab nationalism secular is POV and subjective there is a strong arguement that refutes it as such. How is somebody who stated it's the duty of Arabs to fight for Islam, deemed secular? or how on earth does state that another religion is the greatest achievement over others.♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

However, at the time of his death, Aflaq's family was unaware of his purported conversion.[6] Furthermore, in his book "Sandcastles: The Arabs in Search of the Modern World", the American journalist Milton Viorst mentions that he was told by some Arabs that they were convinced that the Iraqi president, Saddam Hussein had fabricated his conversion, and had inflicted on Aflaq a posthumous humiliation. This was allegedly done under the pretext that by Islamizing Aflaq, Saddam would avoid reminding Iraqis of Baathism's Christian roots.[7]

You obviously are having difficulty understanding what I am saying. I am not speculating, nor pushing POV, I'm simply quoting secondary sources. On the other hand, you are soapboxing Yasmina . Let me repeat myself, again, I have very little time and energy to waste on this. The subject is more than sufficiently covered in the article. If you have "new" information, backed with RS, feel free to add it. The fact that he is Christian is established. If he converted to any other religion, then it would be added, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't Christian. See Karl Marx's article. Yazan (talk) 18:01, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

That source alone indicates it allegded the conversion was fabricated nor doesnt prove. explain how I am soapboxing? from just pointing out what is already in the Article I havent touched this article (not in several months) so I am not sure what I am accused of. I posted to avoid an edit war and point some facts.♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 18:50, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

WP:SOAP. Yazan (talk) 19:41, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I am not soaping go read in memory of the Arab prophet then you will understand that Aflaq was an Islamist symapthizer and ifused Islam within Arabism.♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 20:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

ISBNs

Most, if not all, of the ISBNs in this article are incorrect. They should be checked. Mr Stephen (talk) 20:24, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Got them from google books. --TIAYN (talk) 22:41, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Fascist/Nazi attraction

Why is there no mention of how Aflaq and other Arab nationalists were greatly attracted to 1930s European fascism? Here's some sources for his admiration of 1930s European fascism due to their strident anti-Zionism and militaristic nationalism, how he wanted to use Nazi Germany as a model for postwar Iraq, his enthusiasm for Hitler, subsequent antisemitic riots in Iraq etc. [6] [7] [8] [9] —Filippusson (t.) 11:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

If you had known anything about Aflaq, or the ba'ath movement, you would have known the ba'ath movement during the 1940s turned down an alliance with Italy because it was fascist. Aflaq was not a fascist, he was a nationalist... Several nationalists (from all over the world) supported the nazies, or sympathised with the nazies, not because they were nazies themselves, because nazism fought against the british colonial empire - in Iraq this was the case. + Aflaq was a communist, and joined the Syrian-Lebanese Communist Party, however, Aflaq never joined the rascist Syrian Social Nationalist Party... Its a difference with sympathising with other nationallist movements, and supporting them.... When it came to anti-semitism, sources wary, some accuse him of being one, and some accuse him of not being one; its unclear. Aflaq was against the Jewish occupation of a part of the Arab homeland (e.g. Palestine).... + none of those sources say that Aflaq was influenced by Hitler, they say that nazism in general influenced Aflaq; thats something totally different... I reverted you're edits. --TIAYN (talk) 14:54, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

One of the sources (David Patterson: A Genealogy of Evil), explicitly states that Aflaq (and others) "were admirers and students of Adolf Hitler (...)" How can you dismiss this as "bullshit"? It would be the first time that I gain knowledge of Cambridge University Press publishing bullshit. You may assert that the book has been criticised among the specialist community (note e.g. this review), but simply dismissing it as "bullshit" and reverting without discussion is not acceptable. --RJFF (talk) 16:25, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

See page 84 in World fascism: a historical encyclopedia, Volum 1 (its available in Google Books). The author says that ba'athism had some characteristics with fascism, but the general link to ba'athism and German fascism was Aflaq's more-or-less anti-anglophile sentiments.... Ba'athism was not fascist, but was more similar to the pan-Europe ideology in Europe. The book you've sourced is, by all means, shit. I'm not saying that because I disagree with the man, I'm saying it because it contains a bunch of historical inaccuracies. --TIAYN (talk) 17:05, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand that you don't like what the sources say, but that does not give you a special mandate to simply dismiss and censor anything related to Aflaq's fascist links. Of course there may be a discussion about what the nature of the links were, but to simply leave it out and pretend that it isn't even an issue is unacceptable (certainly if you want this article to pass as GA). —Filippusson (t.) 17:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem including such allegations, but you're edit says its fact, which its clearly not. The inclusion of ba'athism as a fascist ideology is extremely controversial. Of course, me or you or RJFF can of course create a sections entitled "Controversy" or "Allegations of fascism", but saying he was influenced by Adolph Hitler and claiming it be a non-controversial fact makes the article worse.. What I'ms saying is, controversial subjects should be handled with clear, either handle them with care, or don't handle them at all. --TIAYN (talk) 18:30, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that so many sources (I only displayed a small random selection, there's plenty more, including [10]: "We know that a key Ba'athist ideologue, Michel Aflaq, expressed admiration for Hitler..." [11]: "Leading Arab intellectuals such as Michel Aflaq ... adopted Nazi ideas..." etc.) would just make something up, which seems to be what you claim. Nonetheless you know very well that Wikipedia have to reflect what sources say, not the personal opinions of editors. So unless you have sources that claims the opposite, i.e. that Aflaq was not in part influenced by 1930s fascism and Nazism, you have no right to just censor it from this article. The sources seem to disagree with you. —Filippusson (t.) 14:54, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I've given you a source, and there are plenty more.. Read the posts above (I have more sources)... The majority of Arabs symphatised with German nazism, but influence and symphaty does not mean they were nazis, thats the only thing I've been saying. Some claim that he was a Nazi, the majority don't. A quick search will prove that. If you want to you can write a "Controversy" or "Allegation of being a Nazi section", but claiming that he was a Nazi as the sole and only fact is wrong. The majority of scholars don't believe he was a Nazi. --TIAYN (talk) 15:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

You know perfectly well that nobody has said that Aflaq "was a Nazi." What we have said is that Aflaq was in part influenced by fascism, Nazism and Hitler. I have no intention of making a particularly big deal out of this in the article, but I think it should be mentioned in a few sentences where it discusses Aflaq's ideology/thought. —Filippusson (t.) 16:59, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

We all know he was influenced by fascism, I've never heard however that he was influenced by Adolph Hitler... There is a reason for why the ba'ath movement turned down an alliance with fascist Italy you know. Another problem is that everybody he was influenced, nobody agrees on how much effect this influence had.. I'm saying, as I've always said, write a controversy section (in the ideology section if you like) about the amount of influence of nazism on Aflaq. The point is however, you can't present these as the sole facts, cause they aren't, you can claim however that several people believe he was heavily influenced by Hitler and nazism. But you'll have to present that in a way which is neutral.. This is not Goebbels, who was a known Nazi, a open Nazi, Aflaq believed in democracy for all (never excluded any groups), the only thing which is fascist like in his ideology is that he wants to kick out the European imperialists and the Jews from Israel (but many Arabs want to kick the Jews out of Israel, thats not fascist - of course, I know this if NPOV, but its true).. Many people claim Aflaq to be fascist because he was a nationalist, and because he opposed Israel, and every inch of its existence - they accuse him of anti-semitism (which, again, is controversial, since we don't know for sure).... Just write a "controversy" or a "allegation of being a nazi" section (and yes, you can add it in the thoughts section); OK? --TIAYN (talk) 17:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Michel Aflaq/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Coemgenus (talk · contribs) 15:55, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

    Done In "Arab Ba'ath Movement: 1940–1947", you have two sentences that say the same thing: that in 1942, Aflaq quit teaching to do politics full-time. You should delete one of them.

    Done You translate "Ba'ath" as both "rebirth" and "resurrection". Which is it? Is it both?

   In the last sentence of "Death of Aflaq", you write that "...the Iraqi Governing Council, in pursuance of the de-Ba'athification policy, ordered the removal of his coffin and the destruction of his tomb." Was the order carried out? If so, where is his body now?

• • • I have no freakin' clue! --TIAYN (talk) 16:32, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

    Done In "Arab Ba'ath Movement: 1940–1947", do you have a citation for the quoted section "the most prestigious secondary school in Syria"?

    Done In "The schism: 1964–1965", do you have a citation for "Shortly after, Umran was sent into exile as Ambassador to Spain." Does the source say that the reason he was sent was to exile him (or at least get him out of the way)?

    Done Same section, do you have a citation for "It was plain from the very beginning that the initiative lay with the anti-Aflaq forces."?

    Done In "Iraqi-led Ba'ath Party: 1968–1989", do you have a citation for his criticism of the Ba'ath leadership's inaction in Palestine?

2. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

3. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

    Done In "The beginning: 1963–1964", the sentence "While the Military Committee was in fact hijacking the Ba'ath Party..." comes off as a bit inflammatory.

4. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Some discussion, but no edit-warring that I can see.

5. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Images are all from Syria and Iraq, and all purport to be public domain.

6. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   OK, all my questions and comments seem to be resolved, as far as they can be. I'll change this to "pass." Nice job! --Coemgenus (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

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