Talk:The Chocolate War

Untitled

The chocolate war is a great novel i think that it should be available for any student to read Can anyone find any reference to Chocolate War, Beyond the Chocolate War, and I Am the Cheese being called a "trilogy" by any critic? I can't, and until someone does, I'm deleting that sentence. --zenohockey 21:10, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This book is partly famous for how often it was banned from schools. Is that something that should be added to the entry? I will try to find some more detail on it, since my memories are hazy as to the details, but if I get something written up about it, I'll add it.

As to it being a trilogy, After the Chocolate War is obviously a sequel, but I don't see how the plot in I am the Cheese could even be related. I have never heard of those books being called a trilogy. --Professional Lurker 14:05, 2 Mar 2005 (PST) this book is ggood

computer simulation provides solution to the chocolate war

The description strongly reminds me of things that I perceive organized crime does, even with the context of society authorities, from participation at harvesting resources, to public image stresses, to "blueberry" like school employees. Now here is the idea Is there a book that shows how to defeat the mob machine. Is what mathematicians call Game theory able to describe a group of most effective destruction moves on a political machine. Those books would be highly mentionable at the text of the article as well as providing true guidance when the school mob machine is immoral as well as the school staff (government) what are new solutions

Jerry has no one to "tell" Emile is too psychologically habituated to the mob machine to realize that Archie is his foe. Kill Archie Emile. Mutiny against the mafia.

The movie Wargames sucessfully described game theory from a media friendly perspective. What groups of minimal actions could mathematically predictably erase the vigils. A book that truly describes these methods would be of great benefit to persons as well as benefit society.

Emile "ben" huh huh Jerry Look Emile, they just train people to emote on topic towards an organizational goal. If you are going to hit, hit the person that hit you then twisted you, rather than where that person tells you to hit. Better yet hit the person that twisted your attacker. Kill your supervisors supervisor. Mutiny against the mafia. Kill Archie Emile. Kill Leon. emile fuck you vigilfucker Jerry I'm just looking for an alternative to cyaniding the entire place. Dad is a pharmacist!

A specific game theory approach would be to have a reciprocal Kill ratio Each person killed at an overseas war requires the killing of ten persons at the country conducting the overseas war Killing 10 italians for each petrson killed overseas during USA wars removes Italians from the USA. It is better to kill absent sensation or awareness. Treon Verdery — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.224.196.40 (talk) 16:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

WTF? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.117.94.251 (talk) 16:05, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Excerpts

Source of these excerpts

- Book cover/size/number of pages looks aimed at young (6/7/8th grade) reader

- Language: For Christ’s sake, bastard (24), Jesus (numerous), Christ (numerous), goddamn (10), hell (numerous), son of a bitch (4), shit/bullshit (5), etc.

- "The exhilaration.. vanished and he sought it in vain, like seeking ecstasy's memory an instant after jacking off and encountering only shame and guilt."

- ".. receive communion... you’re receiving The Body, man. Me, I’m just chewing a wafer they buy by the pound..."

- Looking at girls in Playboy, wondering if “he would die before holding a girl’s breast in his hand.”

- Brother verbally teases and abuses one of his students in front of the class, getting the whole class to laugh at the boy.

- “..how he sometimes felt .. horny..when he roughhoused a kid or tackled a guy viciously…”

- “At night in bed, he could have one without even touching himself, just thinking of her.”

- “..her breast brushing his arm, setting him on fire…first time (he) thought it was accident….then she brushed again…. He knew it wasn’t ..felt himself hardening ….. those beautiful breasts….tomorrow she’d probably let him get under her sweater.”

- “ (old people) were to old for sex… he couldn’t believe his mother and father ever actually..”

- Boy with camera without film catches another boy masturbating in toilet: “..pants dropping on floor, one hand furiously at work between his legs.” Pretends to take photo. Taunts him: “If you’re going to jack off in a toilet, at least lock your door.” Continues to blackmail/control other boy throughout book using supposed photo.

- Cigarettes, bully makes freshman buy or steal cigarettes for him

- “..calling to mind the figure of a girl…sweater had bulged beautifully…books pressed against her rounded breasts. If my hands were only those books, he thought….hand now curled between his legs, he concentrated on the girl. But for once, it was no good,..”

- “..Fantastic looking. Tight sweater, clinging low slung jeans. Jesus. ..Watching girls and devouring them with your eyes-rape by eyeball-was something you did automatically…… he feasted himself on her rounded jeans..”

- “It was good to have people hate you-it kept you sharp. And then when you put the needle in them….. you felt justified.. didn’t have to worry about your conscience.”

- “..hang out around ..the girls high school…let your eyes devour some luscious sights…talk one of them into the car, for a ride home. With detours.”

- “How many times you jack off every day? Twice (he) replied quickly. See….no secrets here..”

- Boy harassed by constant late night phone calls, locker trashed.

- Teased by one boy: “..what I mean by closet, ..touching (his) cheek.. lingering in a faint caress…you’re a fairy. A queer.. homos..you must be creaming all over, wow, 400 ripe young bodies to rub against…Kiss me…You son of a bitch…” Then he was brutally beaten by a dozen boys: "..swarming all over him, hitting him high and low.. a dozen fists pummeled his body, fingernails tore at his cheek and a finger clawed his eye.. wanted to blind him.. wanted to kill him.. Pain.. in his groin.. kicked him there.. blows rained.. without mercy.. no let up.. somebody was pounding his head furiously... another kick in his groin.. vomit now.. open his mouth to let it spray forth.. threw up.. kick him again, ths time in his lower back, the final sheet of pain that drew a black curtain over his eyes."

- "..people are 2 things: greedy and cruel... we're all bastards."

- “The raffle tickets were selling like dirty pictures.”

- Brutal graphic fight in front of all school by two boys masterminded, arranged and setup by another boy. All the kids get to pay to describe what kind of blow they want one boy to hit the other with. Fight gets out of hand and they start to chant "kill him, kill him,.. sank to the stage, bloody, opened mouth, sucking for air, eyes unfocused, flesh swollen... collapsed like a hunk of meat cut loose from a butcher's hook." The fight is witnessed secretly by one of the religious teachers (Brother L.) who does nothing to intervene as one boy is almost beat to death. Another teacher who was also aware also did nothing to prevent fight or intervene when it got out of hand

- At the end of the book the cruel sadistic boys come out on top along with the cruel, corrupt brother's who run the school. The boy who resisted selling the chocolate was the one beaten twice in the book. At the end his lesson learned was "..do whatever they wanted you to do..They don't want you to do your thing, not unless it happens to be their thing..Don't disturb the universe.. they murder you."

- Robert Cormier, author of numerous books for young children, is one of the most challenged authors, this title is just one of his books that have been frequently challenged. Adult content (age inappropriateness) and foul language are two common reasons. Many of his titles have been deemed inappropriate for younger students

- For a more information on The Chocolate War Click Here

- In Fairfax County Public School Elementary and Middle School Library System

- This book is the 3rd most challenged book of the 1990's

- This book was removed from the curriculum in three school Texas districts in 1997

- It has also been challenged on delving into "adolescent psychology", "sexually explicit language", and "violence."

- The most challenged fiction book of 1998

- In 1996 it was removed from middle school libraries in the Riverside, California, after a district committee decided the book was inappropriate for seventh and eighth graders to read without class discussion.

- Also challenged for descriptions of bullying, dehumanizing institutions, language and sexual references.

--SafeLibraries 03:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

What exactly what the point of that? Strange. --66.129.135.114 15:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The point is the book is in the news quite often regarding its language. As wikipedians edit this page, have the language that is the subject of the news articles is a definite advantage. So the point is to make for a better page written by people who are better informed. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 06:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Catholic?

It either being challenged for being or is Anti-Catholic was added by apparent vandal user:Locust01 but I can't see any suporting evidence. This from Google cache of interview with the author (presumably from the interviewer): "You must still get the occasional reader or parent who somehow thinks you're anti-Catholic schools, when that is not remotely the point of The Chocolate War". Some Reviewers have said it only happens to be set in a Catholic school. I havent read the book so I can't comment. Cheers Dmanning 04:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

of course the book's anti-Catholic===

It depicts a Catholic school and its religious brothers as filled with perversity and sadism. It's an old lady in a new dress.

"The publication of Awful Disclosures of the Hotel Dieu by Maria Monk captivated hundreds of thousands of Americans when it appeared in 1836. The runaway nun’s allegations against the convent “inmates,” including rape, torture, murder, and infanticide, prompted demands to outlaw convents in the United States. Testimonies and convent investigations held public interest." A Massachusetts legislative committee even searched the grounds of Holy Cross College in Worcester expecting to find captive women. Didn't find any, but afterwards celebrated anyway.

Awful Disclosures appeared in an era when England had only recently emancipated its Catholic after decades of an Apartheid regime and when in America some states still barred Catholics from public office. As reported in Yale Magazine, Yale didn't open its doors to students from Catholic schools until the 1960s. Confronting this bigotry in 1860 John Kennedy said.

"Are we going to admit to the world that a Jew can be elected Mayor of Dublin, a Protestant can be chosen Foreign Minister of France, a Moslem can be elected to the Israeli parliament—but a Catholic cannot be President of the United States? Are we going to admit to the world--worse still, are we going to admit to ourselves—that one-third of the American people is forever barred from the White House?" Kennedy was elected, but didn't was assassinated in office.

The comment here that the book isn't anti-Catholic illustrates that even today anti-Catholicism is America's only acceptable bigotry.

POV

I removed this text, which seemed pretty POV to me. If anyone has references for these statements (particularly the one about Robert Cormier's view of Jerry), please feel free to add them back in.

"Author Robert Cormier does not, however, believe Jerry is the agent of his own undoing. Jerry is neither made out to be a heroic or a moral person. His character is above all realistic: a normal boy who becomes a tragic hero under certain circumstances. Unlike Lord of the Flies, it is not human nature, but human culture which the author explains very well."

Elizabeth Lund 01:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Notes - moved here from main article

Robert Cormier’s introduction to the audiobook presentation of The Chocolate War

As a writer I’m often asked which novel of mine is my favourite. That’s hard to answer; it’s like asking a father which child is his favorite. But of all my novels I have to say that ‘The Chocolate War’ holds a special place in my life and in my heart.

First of all I discovered the young adult audience with ‘The Chocolate War’ and they discovered me. These young readers have changed my life. I didn’t know about the existence of the young adult audience when I wrote the novel - oh I knew that somewhere someone was writing books for kids – but I didn’t know that a separate category of adolescent literature had been developing. I simply wrote ‘The Chocolate War’ as a novel with no thought of labels. It was written the way all my novels and short stories have been written – A strong emotion sends me to the typewriter, and the story follows.

In this particular case my son Peter, who was attending a Catholic boys high school decided not to sell the chocolates during the schools annual sale. Peter did this as a matter of principle, and my wife and I supported him. He went through that entire sale without selling a single chocolate. Now he may have had some uncomfortable moments, but nothing traumatic happened to him.

But something traumatic happened to me, as I realized the potential for disaster. After all Peter was only fourteen, a freshman in a new school, in a new city, a school populated with four hundred energetic boys. I was worried, apprehensive, scared, in fact, and this assault of emotions sent me to the typewriter – To find out the answers to a series of “What if” questions. “What if”, the question that’s the key to all my writing: In this case what if there were peer pressure on Peter to sell those chocolates, or faculty pressure? What if the sale were so vital to the school that it consumed the place? The answers forced me to invent characters to carry out those “What if” answers, so Archie Costello was born, and Brother Leon, whom you’ll be meeting in a moment or two, and all the others, Obie, and Carter, and most of all Jerry Renualt, who might have been my own son, but wasn’t.

Another thing: ‘The Chocolate War’ was written in complete innocence - and with many doubts on my part - As I wrote I wondered: ‘Whose going to read this thing about boys in a high school involved in candy sale? – But I always trust my instincts when I write, and I kept on filling those pages with people and events. By the last page ‘The Chocolate War’ had come into existence and I began my career as a young adult novelist.

I discovered that I enjoyed writing about adolescence – That lacerating, wonderful, terrible time of life. My own children were teenagers and I saw them living the kind of tragic and, yes, comic, life I had lived a generation before. So I began to write a series of novels about adolescence in this big, terrifying world of ours, writing about them but not for them.

The pleasures have been abundant. I have enjoyed this audience of young people, young readers who are sensitive and intelligent, and demanding and loyal to the writers they read. It has been wonderful and continues to be. And it all began with ‘The Chocolate War.’

--Okay, I moved this from the main article to Talk after an IP address with few edits added it [1] so people can consider if/how this should be included in main article. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 12:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Photo?

I doubt that photo of the cover is from the 1986 edition. Looks a lot more recent. That kid probably wasn't even born in 1986! But you know what? You people go do what you want. 05:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure as to the year of the cover photo, but somebody needs to fix the caption. It's been labelled as a 70th anniversary edition, and the book isn't even 70 years old! Moloch dhalgren (talk) 04:26, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Do me, baby!

Love this novel. It gets 8000+ views per month. Well over the magic 3000 thumbrule. Plus I like it. I would take on the fookers just like Jerry did. I effing would! Let's get this article up to GA!!!

TCO (talk) 06:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Not to put a damper on your celebration, but the Talk Page is supposed to be about ways to improve the article, not to rave about how good this book is.--Neateditor123 (talk) 20:21, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Neateditor123

Controversy...

Considering how controversial this book was due to its frank scenes of sex and violence, I think there should be a section about it (find more information here: https://www.avclub.com/robert-cormier-s-the-chocolate-war-is-a-much-banned-ma-1798232684). Thoughts, anyone?--Neateditor123 (talk) 20:14, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Neateditor123