Talk:Karl Plagge

Untitled

Is it certain that he was a Nazi Party member? I know that the BBC article [1] calls him a Nazi, but I took that as a generic usage. My understanding is that regular German military (as opposed to the SS) weren't supposed to be party members. There were exceptions, but this guy doesn't seem like he would be one. -- Randy 14:41, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The author of the book, The Search For Major Plagge was on C-SPAN over the weekend. He said Major Plagge did indeed join the Nazi Party in (I think) 1931. He joined because of the Nazis' economic message, but was disillusioned long before the war.

May 24 additions

Thanks for today’s additions. I had a little trouble working in the details about the extermination of Lithuania’s Jews, though, because it seemed to be a veer off topic—this article is about Plagge, so focusing too much on peripheral details, however important from other perspectives, is slightly confusing. I eventually settled on breaking that material off into a second paragraph, since it does supply context for the body text.

Schwartzberg: Plagge's significance (historically) is vis-a-vis the extermination of jews in Vilnius.

There is one parenthetic whose significance I don’t understand, and I’ve marked it with the “vague” tag. If you could elucidate what you intend to convey with it, I will try to work that content into the text in an unintrusive manner.

Schwartzberg: will do latter also in reference to your comments below.

The above aside, there is still the issue of attribution. Could you please provide page—line sources for the newly added material? That would greatly enhance the credibility of the article. Thanks, and best regards, Jim_Lockhart 02:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

To 87.60.219.70/Mr. Schwartzberg: Thanks for adding to your previous material. I think I now understand what you meant about Jews surviving as a proportion of population, but I’m still not 100% sure. With all due respect, please read my changes carefully before making any alterations—I believe they reflect the intent of the content you added:

• Where I have changed extermination to any other word, I have done so because it was inappropriate as used, not because it was loaded.

Schwartzberg: they were exterminated. Killed is too vague.

• Please check the number of Plagge Jews that the SS managed to murder in the end—over 1,000 seems too high given the other numbers mentioned (1,200 in total, death rate of 80% = 960 killed), so either the “over 1,000” number or the other numbers are off.

Schwartzberg: Excellent critique, will do.

• Please cite sources for your new material, especially dates and numbers.

Schwartzberg: OK - i think this is mainly Plagges letters (especially the one where he uses Camus), and his denazification file which is online, and his military correspondance which is also available online. Generally: my contribution is based only on the evidence.

• One of the web sites linked to in the references section brought up a “no number under that product” message, which is why I deleted the link.
• References are generally presented in bulleted lists in Wikipedia, not enumerated lists. Please don’t revert the bullets.

Thanks and best regards, Jim_Lockhart 08:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Karl Plagge-Cause of Death

I have not been able to confirm the cause of Karl Plagge's death. In my correspondance with Hans Madsen (Plagge's stepson) he refers to Plagge complaining of headaches in his diary during the final year of his life: "Anke has kept her and Karl’s notebooks from 1944 on and most of their correspondence. In Karl’s I see very often remarks concerning “headache” and Anke told me that a lot of tablets were found in his room at the Hessenwerke after his death. Karl died in his bed- Anke tried to cool his front with a wet washrag and he whispered “Anke, Lass!” and he was gone."

I had interpreted this to mean that perhaps he had a brain tumor, but that is quite speculative. Unless one can find a death certificate, I do not know of any good source for this information.

Best Regards, Michaeldg (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)Michael Good

Fair enough. As long as there is no definite proof as to the cause of death, better keep it neutral. Cheers. Ekki01 (talk) 08:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The article on Plagge at http://www.raoulwallenberg.net lists his cause of death as a brain tumor.

However, I would not necessarily use this because that same article lists the month of his death as July while here a specific date is given in June.

Lastly, in my trying to justify my correction of Major Plagge's birth-date, I have come across the fact that there is a 238 page book on his life called, "The Search for Major Plagge: The Nazi Who Saved Jews, Expanded Edition."

It's published by Fordham University Press and in the 13 reviews on "Amazon" it seems to be highly regarded.

http://www.amazon.com/Search-Major-Plagge-Saved-Expanded/dp/0823224406

I've obviously not read this book but it would seem to clear up some of the points raised here in the "talk" page. Satchmo Sings (talk) 03:01, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Removed Military Service box

While it is true that Karl Plagge served in both the First and Second World Wars under the German flag, he was in fact a pacifist and profoundly troubled by the militaristic actions of his nation from 1939-45. He was horrified when he realized in 1938 that Hitler intended to start a second, expansionistic world war and certainly did not volunteer for service in the Wehrmacht. He was against the war, served unwillingly and did what he could to undermine the criminal enterprises that his nation had undertaken. He would be horrified to be portrayed as a proud military veteran of the Nazi regime (I am referring specifically to the section of the box that states "allegiance" and shows the swastika flag and is labeled "Nazi Germany". Thus, I have removed the military service box, which does tend to portray him in such a light.

Here are some quotes from Plagge's testimony at his denazification trial in 1947 which I believe supports my view:

"I did not volunteer for this war and did not want to prolong the conflict by spurring my labor to produce the needed resources with even greater efficiency...I think the reason for the closing of the motor vehicle repair park had to do with the fact that my regiment commander accused me of being too soft in the treatment of my workers."

"The war and the sad development of the national-socialist system destroyed an ideal in myself and even before the end of this terrible war I was deeply embittered towards all the people who deceived and tricked me, those who were responsible for the whole misery and hardship of the war. That was the reason why, in 1945, I tried to prevent all bloodshed and destruction and led my whole division into American captivity."

I am baffled as to your reasons for removing his military service box. He either was or wasn't a member of the German military in WW1 and WW2. (He was.) Whether he "liked" it our not, is not relevant or material. --Petzl (talk) 02:34, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Karl Plagge's Birthdate

In the opening of this article, Karl Plagge's birthdate is listed as "orange 21, 1918."

(Can someone PUH-LEEZE explain to me what does lower case "orange" mean in regards to a birth-date?)

In the Wikipedia article on "July 10" Plagge's birdate is listed as July 10, 1897.

Also, the article makes reference to his being a World War One veteran; this date of birth would make him less than a month old at the time of the Armistice on November 11th.

Since the article on him claims him to be a WWI vet, and the picture of him in a uniform of The Third Reich appears to be that of a middle-aged man and not someone in his 20s, I would therefore assume, coupled with the lower case "orange" for the listed birth-month, that the birth-date on the Wikipedia "July 10" page would be the correct one.

That said, I've found his birth YEAR but not the date, on a page at "Holocaust Survivors and Remembrance Network." http://isurvived.org/Rightheous_Folder/Plagge_Karl_MajGerman.html.

I had also found his exact birth-date on another page, however that was merely a re-hash of this article, or vice-versa so I felt the need to go elsewhere.

Also, I need the help of other "Wikipedians" in that I do need your help in learning how to contact other members; I'm but a middle-aged person and regarding so much of this "digital stuff" I need your help! Satchmo Sings (talk) 02:40, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

You did the right thing. People usually don't have their birthdays change so it seemed like an unsourced revision. Looking into the history more, the last edit before yours was anonymous and it was inaccurate and that user has been warned. Thank you and sorry for the hassle. - Stillwaterising (talk) 03:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

File:Plagge.JPG Nominated for speedy Deletion

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Karl Plagge/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zawed (talk · contribs) 09:07, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

I will review, comments to follow over next few days. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:07, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Lead

• No issues identified

Infobox

• As above

Early life

• "participated in the battles of the Somme, Verdun, and Flanders". Flanders is pipelinked to Battle of Passchendaele, is that how it is known in German sources?

In text, it states "Flanders". On Wikipedia, Battle of Flanders is a disambiguation page, but if the battles that Plagge participated in were listed in chronological order, it must have been Passchendaele.

• "treating Jews in the medical laboratory"; no antecedence for the medical laboratory?

Clarified

• "In 1934, Plagge began to work at Hessenwerks..."; the placement of this sentence suggests that this followed his dismissal from the Nazi educational institute. But that happened in 1935?

He worked part time at the Hessenwerks and part time for the Nazi institute until he was fired in 1935.

Service in Lithuania

• " and stopped to pay Nazi Party membership fees at the same time." Rephrase to "stopped paying Nazi Party..."

 Done

• "forced to work for the Wehrmacht."; better clarify what the Wehrmacht is as it is referred to again later. I wonder if the best way would be to clarify your explanation of the Heer to be the Army branch of the Wehrmacht?

Clarified as "German military"

• "many Jews were rounded up and shot in "Aktions"; is there a link for "Aktions", otherwise an explanation/translation of what is meant may be required

Linked to section in Glossary of Nazi Germany. It could also be taken out, because it's basically a euphemism for deportation and/or murder

• "Plagge argued with SS-Obersturmführer Rolf Neubauer"; this caught my eye due to the redlink to a Rolf Neugebauer in the next section. Are these the same individual, if so then there is a typo in the name? Also link the rank on first mention (it is linked in the next section)

Typo in source, but these appear to be the same individual, Rolf Neugebauer. Corrected accordingly.

• " they provided the Wehrmacht in its war effort.[17][16]"; reorder refs

Done

• "its extensive underground..."; I assume you mean underground as in subway, suggest linking for avoidance of doubt

Clarified underground movement, linked

• "SS NCO, Bruno Kittel"; link NCO

Done

• "were liberated by the Red Army on 13 July.[30][24][28]"; reorder refs

Done

Post-war

• "After leaving Vilnius, Plagge surrendered his unit to the United States Army without suffering a single casualty."; is there any information on his service from July 1944 to May 1945, particularly on how he got to serve in the West (and thus surrender to the US) rather than staying in the East?

Unfortunately, no.

• "told Maria Eichamueller about Plagge's actions."; who was this Maria? A social or refugee worker?

Unfortunately, this is not stated in any of the sources.

• "heart attack in Darmstadt in June 1957."; recite exact day of death, it is referred to in the infobox

Done

Assessment and legacy

• "a letter was discovered that Plagge had written in 1957 to a Jewish lawyer named Strauss."; is this the same lawyer he wrote to in 1956? If so, I can see how it helps his case but less so otherwise.

Yes, the year was a typo. Fixed.

• "Letters between Plagge and SS-Obersturmbanführer Goeke"; italicise rank, and who is this Goeke? I don't understand how this helps his case.

Clarified

References/Other stuff

• for the Good website, I suggest adding (2018) to better match Note 31.

Done

• Dupe link: denazification

Fixed

• No dablinks
• External links check out OK
• Image tags generally OK except for the one of Pearl Good where the authorship is not as explicit as the other images contributed by who I assume is Michael Good.

I hope the above points improve the article. It is great work overall and a very interesting article. I will check back in a few days to see how it is progressing. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 02:15, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Reviewing the changes to the article and the comments above, I am satisfied that this article meets the GA criteria. It is well written in neutral language, reliably sourced, and appropriately illustrated. Passing as GA now. Zawed (talk) 07:26, 21 January 2019 (UTC)