Talk:List of first black Major League Baseball players

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MLB expansion teams after 1960

Shouldn't the teams that started after 1960 also be added?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.116.137 (talk) 22:10, 13 December 2004

All MLB expansion teams have been integrated since day one.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.78.235 (talk) 03:01, 15 August 2005

First 20 by date

I'd like to make a list of the first 20 black MLB players not by team, but just by date. can anyone help make such a list? Kingturtle 07:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I listed the first seven: List of first black Major League Baseball players § Overall. It would take further research to determine whether Monte Irvin, or another Brooklyn, Cleveland or St. Louis Browns player was #8. wbm1058 (talk) 22:53, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This reference is good enough for me. It claims, he was #7, but they missed Campanella. wbm1058 (talk) 00:00, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, from the comments section "My list shows that Irvin was the 9th - J. Robinson, L. Doby, H. Thompson, W. Brown, D. Bankhead, R. Campanella, S. Paige, and D. Newcombe came before Monte. That list doesn't include the darker skinned Latins like Minnie Minoso who also preceded Irvine. It gets complicated since many Latins played before Jackie's debut (over 40 individuals) but they were of lighter skin apparently."

What do you do when mlb.com can't be relied upon as an accurate source? In the future, their writers may rely on Wikipedia as the best source! wbm1058 (talk) 00:08, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, 48 Latins played in the Majors before Robinson, of which 13 also played in the Negro Leagues. Supposedly they were "vetted" and found not to contain "black blood" but who can say for sure? Thus it is claimed that the Red Sox were not the last to integrate, but the first, with Ramon "Mike" Herrera in 1925, althouhg 17 Latins came before him. It is a fascinating subject, but one that likely will never be completey resolved. 96.237.184.133 (talk) 18:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done thanks to the Society for American Baseball Research for the reference. wbm1058 (talk) 14:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rename article

If anyone is interested, this blog entry suggests that the article may need to be renamed. I don't know much about this subject, so I leave it to someone who does know more. Jokermage ^{"Timor Mentum Occidit"} 17:03, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what you had in mind as I couldn't find that old blog, but I just generalized the title by moving the page from List of first black Major League Baseball players by team to List of first black Major League Baseball players. – wbm1058 (talk) 22:05, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Moses Fleetwood Walker

The book the 50 biggest baseball myths states that Moses Fleetwood Walker in 1884 was the first black player... or at least that he predated Robinson by 60 years. Mglovesfun—Preceding undated comment added 04:28, 17 August 2006

I agree, the scope of this article is not specifically defined enough. It appears that the intent is to show the first black player for each Major League team after the "Color Barrier" was broken. Neonblak 14:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I made this more clear by making the qualifier a hatnote. wbm1058 (talk) 21:58, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Where did the information in the paragraph explaining the list come from? shaggy (talk) 23:19, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What specific facts are you questioning? And have you looked at the articles the various items link to? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:27, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly the information in the lead, it sounds a lot like "something someone heard once somewhere". I don't doubt that the infomration in the table is correct, but it should be sourced from somewhere. shaggy (talk) 13:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The information in the lead is widely known and is referenced in various articles. Perhaps you could be more specific about what it is you don't believe. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:31, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What about Celoron Acme Black Giants which were the last all black team in an all white Iron and Oil League. Sources are Robert Peterson’s “Only the Ball Was White.” Also additional archival research I did for SABR. Greg Peterson, no relation. 74.69.185.241 (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the other Dodgers???

There are multiple players from other teams (such as the Indians), where are the other Dodgers (Roy Campanella, etc) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dodger55fan (talk • contribs) 21:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's the first black player per team. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

2016 continuation

I agree. I tried to add Roy Campanella last evening, but some reversed that change today. I did not try to add Campy as prior to Robinson, simply to include him in the list as are other ballplayers. The person who reversed the list argued that R.C. should not be included because Robinson preceded him. Of course. But the list includes several teams with more than one entry. There is no reason not to include R.C. The person who reversed seems to misunderstand the title of the article. The earliest players should be listed, even if there is more than one player from each team. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aremkay — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aremkay (talk • contribs) 20:13, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Aremkay: I am the dynamic IP that reverted your addition. This list is limited the the first black player per team -- the first one, not the first few. No team has more than one chronological entry (note: the Giants & Reds have 2 players listed because they both debuted in the same game on the same day). However, changing the scope of the list to the first few (say, 5 or 10?) black players per team would not be a horrible idea. But you would need to define the scope of the list and also you would need to come to the table with a good list for each team. This is possibly do-able, but you would need to have sources and players for all teams, not just Campy for the Dodgers. Rgrds. (Dynamic IP, will change when I log off.) --64.85.216.81 (talk) 01:19, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Where is Satchel Paige?

I got on here to try and remember Satchel Paige's name to buy my wife a book about him, and I had to ask her because he's not on this list. I'm pretty sure he was the second black player to play in the white leagues. --68.44.13.238 (talk) 02:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)Chezzo Osman[reply]

No. He was signed by the Cleveland Indians, who had already signed Larry Doby, at least. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Second black pitcher, and first in the American league. Dan Bankhead of the Dodgers was the first. Paige's bio says that he was the seventh overall Black player in the majors. The Dodgers, Indians and St. Louis Browns each had added their second Black players before any other team added their first. wbm1058 (talk) 21:06, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ozzie Virgil, or Bill Bruton and Jake Wood?

The list and most baseball historians consider Ozzie Virgil, Sr., a Dominican, to have broken the color line for the Tigers in June 1958 (making them 15th of the Original 16 to do so), with Pumpsie Green making the Red Sox the 16th of the 16 in July 1959. However, Red Sox-related biographical articles on Joe Cronin, Bucky Harris and Pinky Higgins (and perhaps others, although not this article or Green's bio) have been edited in the past few months to state that Detroit was really the last team to integrate in 1961, when African-American players Bill Bruton and Jake Wood were in their starting lineup on Opening Day. If the color line excluded all players of known African descent, and if Virgil qualifies as such, these edits to the Red Sox pages should be deleted. Not known whether the editor considers Afro-Latino players or only African-American players in his ranking of the Red Sox ahead of the Tigers in desegregation.McGill1974 (talk) 00:07, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a reference to Tygiel's book, which says "In April 1958, an ad hoc civil rights group, the Briggs Stadium Boycott Committee, threatened a fan boycott of Tiger games unless the club desegregated. Club officials delayed the protest action with pledges to to end its all-white policies as soon as possible. On June 6, the Tigers fulfilled this promise when they called up black third baseman Ossie Virgil, obtained in a preseason trade with the Giants, from their Charleston farm team." There are many other sources as well, but Tygiel is one of the most authoritative authors on desegregation. BRMo (talk) 06:18, 2 January 2014 (UTC) Here are a couple of contemporary newspaper articles that describe Virgil as "the first Negro to wear a Tiger uniform": [1], [2]. BRMo (talk) 06:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Larry Doby played 18 games with the Tigers before being sold to the White Sox on May 13, 1959. So if Latins are no longer considered "black," then Doby would be the first black Tiger. 74.104.189.176 (talk) 16:04, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

replacement firsts?

Since "black" now means American blacks, not Latin blacks, will some of these firsts be replaced?

For the record:

Bob Boyd 1951 replaces Minnie Minoso 1951, White Sox

Curt Roberts 1954 replaces Carlos Bernier 1953, Pirates

Chuck Harmon 1954 replaces Nino Escalera 1954, Reds

Joe Black 1957 replaces Carlos Paula 1954, Senators

Larry Doby 1959 replaces Ozzie Virgil Sr. 1958, Tigers...but before Pumpsie Green of the Red Sox...

74.104.189.176 (talk) 16:05, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by Since "black" now means American blacks...? I was not aware of this. Who made this declaration? I can research this if you can give me some context. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 00:09, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it may not be the case everywhere, but it sure is in Boston. Last year when Mookie Betts was traded, Jackie Bradley Jr. lamented that he was now the "only black" on the Red Sox, despite Xander Bogaerts, Raefel Devers, and several others. The press agreed with him, and now that he's gone too, they talk about the “uncomfortable reality” of there being no blacks on the team, which of course isn’t counting black Latin players...depending on roster status, I believe this year there have been 8 altogether. But yes, I'd be interested to know if any other teams do not have any black players, based on this new definition. I'm not that familiar with many of today's players by name. BTW, Torrii Hunter was famous for saying that Latin players aren't black back in 2010. 74.104.189.176 (talk) 14:46, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

who's REALLY first

With regards to who was the first for each team, there are differences between what baseball officially “recognizes” and what actually happened. As you note, Carlos Bernier was the first black player for the Pirates in 1953, not Curt Roberts in 1954. Has there ever been an official explanation as to why he is not acknowledged, beyond the nonsensical presumption that Puerto Ricans can’t be black?

Now when two players are listed as first, this could happen if both entered the game as fielders at the same time, as for example starters for the home team, although obviously it could happen later in the game as well. But in the two cases listed, that is not what happened. For the Giants, Thompson played the entire game at second base, while Irvin was a late game pinch hitter, so Thompson was first. And for the Reds, both Escalera and Harmon entered the game as pinch hitters, with Escalera first. 74.104.189.176 (talk) 13:48, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]